Trying to remodel...

Topics relating to D-Day modeling/coding/skinning etc.

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InFerNo
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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by InFerNo »

...
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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by Fafner »

Here's a decent hand I got off a site a while back:

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http://www.ddaydev.com/hand.zip
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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by Rab,d »

Yeah. that hand is nice.
Couple issues with this whole thing.
Making new .md2's is a waste of time. The originals are as good as it gets. Grim's .md2's are slightly better than the originals... no one will or should put the time into making anything "slightly" better than the originals.
So, what does that leave us to do?
My current EGL project involves making .md3 substitutions. The .md3 format allows higher poly count, multiple groups and 24/32 bit textures. And no wobble. Pretty good advancement.
Animating the v_ models you have some flexibility from the originals...but still confined by the set number of frames and the sequence. The w_ models, though...are very hard...they have to match the originals exactly. Unless we either do code work and/or redo the player model animations, too. This is all very tedious animating this way.

I have put alot of effort into what i have produced...to see just a handful of players use them and not have them recognized by this website or the community atlarge as "official". It's a bit disheartening.
I have argued this point countless times...we must advance the grfx in order to promote this game. I think all the great stuff we have seen code wise over the past couple years and more...is great. But, we are the only ones that appreciate it...cuz we are the only ones that have accepted the grfx for what they are... The millions of other potential players...well...they get hung up on the shitty grfx and don't give it a try. It's the reality folks.
I really don't want to do anymore without a consensus on this arguement and a joint effort. What we need is a custom engine. Whether it's a variant of EGL or even better a variant of Qfusion or a from the ground up deal. I can't do it. But, if it was done..i'd be right in there.
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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by InFerNo »

I don't think anyone was going to/should make MD2 models.
One of the reasons your work is hardly used is because it is scattered. If there is a big "Rab,d's DDay+ package" I have overlooked it.

But you are right, we can only do so much if we can't get someone to code "an engine". Quakedev.com is going down soon and a great deal of resources will go down with it.
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Re: Trying to remodel...

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The md3s I've seen have been decent, but not a big enough step up to say "Let's force everyone to use EGL now." They tend to be much better gun models, but then ugly hands and mediocre at best gun skins and animations. Darwin's skins may be 8 bit, but they are pro quality. Everyone else's skins tend to not look nearly as good, whether they are 24 bit or not. The only other good skinner I've seen is Julhelm who did the Japan gun skins (not counting the hands) and Grim was good too I think, but all his work tends to be for his own hypothetical game and not dday.

And I think it's better to have consistency in style than to have 12 md2 guns and 3 md3s that look completely different. So I don't think it's right to include 3 md3s in the official game that look completely different. It's the same problem with grim's work. He did some good player models, but then if you were to do usa vs jpn, the players look completely different and it looks weird. The only way it would be practical to have md3 is for the entire game to be redone, and that would be a ridiculous amount of work.

Also any "Developer" can post news so if you want anything to be "official", you can post it there. (although there's a slight chance I could remove it if I think it's not news worthy). And I'd probably add anything to the download section if anyone requests it. I don't even add my own stuff there usually.
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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by Paul »

InFerNo wrote: I found Rab,d's hands, the reason why any of my models only work in EGL is because they should be exported to MD3 and only EGL can work with that. The current models are MD2, and they cause the model to warp and distort so no matter how nice you make them, MD2 will fuck it all up :(

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24070827/tokare ... oning.ms3d
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24070827/carcano2407.ms3d
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24070827/ppsh41version3.ms3d

Made some last minute changes to the PPSh

You can use these to practice, there are some tris that need to be cut out for the final animation, but I guess computers are good enough nowadays to leave these in
I guess there must be no workaround for the MD2 then? just have to use EGL and MD3s?
I'm trying to figure out Misfit Model 3D, but as I said... more complicated... than i thought.... arrghh.....
Rab,d wrote:Yeah. that hand is nice.
Couple issues with this whole thing.
Making new .md2's is a waste of time. The originals are as good as it gets. Grim's .md2's are slightly better than the originals... no one will or should put the time into making anything "slightly" better than the originals.
So, what does that leave us to do?
My current EGL project involves making .md3 substitutions. The .md3 format allows higher poly count, multiple groups and 24/32 bit textures. And no wobble. Pretty good advancement.
Animating the v_ models you have some flexibility from the originals...but still confined by the set number of frames and the sequence. The w_ models, though...are very hard...they have to match the originals exactly. Unless we either do code work and/or redo the player model animations, too. This is all very tedious animating this way.

I have put alot of effort into what i have produced...to see just a handful of players use them and not have them recognized by this website or the community atlarge as "official". It's a bit disheartening.
I have argued this point countless times...we must advance the grfx in order to promote this game. I think all the great stuff we have seen code wise over the past couple years and more...is great. But, we are the only ones that appreciate it...cuz we are the only ones that have accepted the grfx for what they are... The millions of other potential players...well...they get hung up on the shitty grfx and don't give it a try. It's the reality folks.
I really don't want to do anymore without a consensus on this arguement and a joint effort. What we need is a custom engine. Whether it's a variant of EGL or even better a variant of Qfusion or a from the ground up deal. I can't do it. But, if it was done..i'd be right in there.
I feel kind of worried that all this would be for nothing if it was ever finished, I mean.. I don't know. I be quiet now :-|
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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by Rab,d »

All my stuff i have released is beta at best.
If we completed a set of weapons..we could go through and tweak the skins to be more similar to one another.
The animations are restricted by the hard code that sets the sequences. I can only make a reload or whatever as nice as 5-10 frames allows. :)

I like EGL...because it's advanced and supports q2 game code. So, a variant of the EGL engine would be the most practical. It wouldn't be a good idea to make a new game engine from scratch...not because of the work..but because we would lose the original feel of the game.

We would have to make full sets of 2 opposing teams to start. Allied and Axis. Player and weapons models. Make a new engine and set up all existing maps with Allied vs Axis...til we can gradually work in the other teams.
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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by Fafner »

The # of frames isn't an issue. It's not really the animations themselves that are a problem, but the default pose on a lot of the custom models just looks awkward. Like the arms are sticking out too far and the gun is pointed at a weird angle and the hands don't wrap around the gun correctly, etc. When I did animations, I spent the most time getting the default pose to look good. A lot of people seem to rush through that part.
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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by InFerNo »

The screenshots you see from me with the weapon in some sort of basic stand are just rotated in the editor to get a basic idea.

I've been looking at models and thinking which needed work the most (like the Carcano .. wow, you should see that MD2 in an editor :lol: ) and that's how I selected my models to work on. Complexity isn't an issue, because the allied HMG was pretty complex with all the detail I put in that didn't even make it to Rab,ds "final" "beta". Fafner, which models have mediocre skins?

If team per team is the way to roll then I would gladly do so, but not alone, Rab,d read my PM's so he knows how I want to work on this :)

The fact that this thread is being used again is because it's itching for everyone and we want to do something for a game we have loved and played for over a decade.

Create a roadmap without dates but milestone events and let's see how feasible it turns out to be.
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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by TeRRor »

I can offer you my uber skillz in modeling.
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Re: Trying to remodel...

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InFerNo wrote:Fafner, which models have mediocre skins?
I can't remember specific ones, but it seems like a lot of them use a photograph as the skin and the lighting tends to look off. I'm sure there are some good ones though that I'm forgetting.
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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by Paul »

I think we can all agree that the Italian and Polish weapons look absolutely horrendous.
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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by InFerNo »

As a matter of fact, the Polish heavy machine is one of the nicest looking weapon vanilla dday has :)

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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by Rab,d »

The hand above have a skin originating from a photgraph. :/
If you can paint in 24bit well enough to be better than what i have produced from photographs...well...you would have a job with EA or some other big commercial firm. Not much of a chance to have anyone work on dday with that talent.

I think the skins i have produced are certainly good enough for amateur. :P
You have to remember something Fafy. This isn't dry, left brain coding. It's art. You can't be so critical. It's all subjective...and artists work on inspiration and applause. Be careful not to kill their drive with comments that would drive a coder to try harder....they only make artists feel like shit.

We have a shallow pool of talent and players willing to do anything here. Let's take it for what it is...and get something planned, cooridinated and work hard on finishing it.
Let's start with whether or not a custom engine is feasible and within our grasps, first. This will affect model format, animations and code. Once that is set in motion or scrapped let's get back to work on content.

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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by TeRRor »

Rab,d finish up what you started! Inferno help him! And Fafner don't be so cruel. :D
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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by Boons »

If someone guides me through how to animate, id be willing to give it a shot.
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Re: Trying to remodel...

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me 2
Sgt.Darkstar, 101st Airborne, Received the Medal of Honor and the Purple Heart

The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.
-George S. Patton

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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by InFerNo »

Fafner, I see a sequence "frame" and a sequence "newName".
The frame sequence has 30 frames and appears to be pulling the weapon up and firing, but I think the newName sequence has it too. It definately has the firing sequence.

Do I recreate them both?
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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by Fafner »

the frame names are largely meaningless. Milkshape might separate the animations by the name, but you can't go by that at all.
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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by InFerNo »

soooo.....? Do them both? I'm not using Milkshape btw

Spent 20 minutes aligning the MD2 with my model before realising I can't use the bones in frame mode :/
So now I've spent 30 minutes putting the left hand in the right position, I sure hope skeleton frames can be copied and pasted a few frames later.
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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by Fafner »

Well I don't even know what gun you are animating so how could I answer. But generally just copy whatever the original model does? And I don't have every gun animation memorized, you just have to figure it out. Same thing I have to do when I work on the code.
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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by Rab,d »

Yes. Most of the models have poor labeling structure for their sequences. They are either not labeled correctly..or not at all or mixed up. Open the original .md2 up and move through the frames and identify what appears to be the start and stop point of each sequence. Write down the start and stop frame for each. Then when you do the animations for your model...do us all the favor and lablel these sequences with a label that identifies them accurately. ;)
I did this with the m1 and others ones.
The start and stop points are very important, though. Because most frame sequences use the same start frame. So you can copy and paste this start frame to each frame number that represents the start of a new sequence. This is how i start my animating. Then i animate the middle and end frames for each sequence.
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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by InFerNo »

idk, maybe the code looks for sequence "newName" or w/e so I'd feel pretty stupid wasting my time animating 30 frames of nonsense in the "frame" sequence. That doesn't sound so wrong, does it?
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Re: Trying to remodel...

Post by Rab,d »

InFerNo wrote:idk, maybe the code looks for sequence "newName" or w/e so I'd feel pretty stupid wasting my time animating 30 frames of nonsense in the "frame" sequence. That doesn't sound so wrong, does it?
The code looks for frame number...doesn't matter what the name is.
Each weapon has a unique number of frames. That amount and the start frame number of each seuence, how many frames in each sequence is what is hard coded.
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Re: Trying to remodel...

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Last edited by TurkishArmy on Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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